I read this book a few weeks ago because I was interested in the exposit: Jim a pastor takes his atheist friend to visit a bunch of churches and critique them (Matt Casper by the way has visited my communicate and commented). The book offered food for thought but the further I got in to it the less interested I became. At times the two come off as the grumpy old guys from the Muppet Show...
They visit a church one measure and then draw a bunch of conclusions based on a small sample size--a one-time experience. The interesting thing that my friend pointed out is that few churches if any direct under the premise that atheists are visiting our churches unaccompanied by a friend. That's the lens through which they be to want to view these churches. The reality is that most of the churches they visited along with aren't catering to or programming for a lone atheist that wanders into their buildings on Sunday. Most of us subscribe to the invest and invite strategy. Meaning if you're visiting a church you're likely coming with someone who's investing in you (because they compassionate about you) and then they've invited you to come with them to church. The investor/inviter is the one who's responsible to help their guest navigate the experience. Yes the church has some responsibility but it's mainly the one who's invited the friend that's going to be able to help that person (even if they're an atheist) feel accept and comfortable at your perform.
Casper writes about how for instance at he gained more insight and understanding from his conversation with Jim following the perform service than anything that happened at perform that day. EXACTLY! That's how it's supposed to work. It's called drop and invite.
Now. I won't go so far as to say that Jim and Casper are full of crap. They do offer some helpful insights and food for thought. I just evaluate they need to remember that their approach and the lens through which they view our churches is very atypical. And obviously my friend does too.
ohmigosh john bunn! you've just given me some insight into why church in the usa doesn't work for me - if i go to your perform it seems you're saying you take no responsibility to welcome me converse me have the 'up-the-front' cram act me and for the most part that's been my undergo of church meetings in the usa - nice ice - and i dislike it! thankfully there are pubs and sit rooms and off the map live conferences where i can experience jesus' love in community i can't believe you're not REALLY embarrassed by your affix to me you're just saying a whole lot that's do by with churches - ie that people don't accept and engage the thinking/questions/feeling of people visiting and don't conclude any sense of responsibility to (because it's the responsibility of 'the friend who brought them') COME ON!!!! at the church i went to in australia (which was by no means perfect!) people would quite often come in off the street and be welcomed and conversationed on their first visit leading to their embracing of the community over time. I think Jim and Casper are full of brilliance courage insight and wisdom!
megs thanks for your mention. Apparently you didn't read this portion of my affix:Yes the church has some responsibility but it's mainly the one who's invited the friend that's going to be able to help that person (even if they're an atheist) feel welcome and comfortable at your perform. The church very clearly has responsibility to engage and accept guests. And many of us need to do a much exceed job of it. My point is simply that Jim and Casper's visits are atypical. We must be create from raw material for populate that "come in off the streets" but the reality is that most people in the U. S are invited by friends and attend with them. Oh.. wait.. that's Casper's story. He didn't go in to those churches by himself. Interesting. He had a friend with him who could help him affect the experience.. what a great idea.
The reality is that most of the churches they visited along with NewPointe aren't catering to or programming for a lone atheist that wanders into their buildings on Sunday. Most of us subscribe to the invest and invite strategy. Meaning if you're visiting a perform you're likely coming with someone who's investing in you (because they care about you) and then they've invited you to come with them to church.
. and you were too polite to say no. So you politely allow going to perform with them and try not to wince too visibly every time someone up at the front says something so wrong about atheists they should be embarrassed - but aren't probably because they don't fasten out with atheists enough to experience what atheists are really like. Then afterwards you say something polite and vague to your friend in response to "What did you evaluate?" You hope they never arouse you approve but try to think of some excuses just in inspect there is a 'next time'.
Yes the perform has some responsibility but it's mainly the one who's invited the friend that's going to be able to help that person (even if they're an atheist) conclude welcome and comfortable at your church.
John,I'm curious as to how you know Jim and Casper's visits are "atypical"? How do you experience/find out the beliefs and opinions and responses of those who go in the door? It seems to me 'Jim and Casper go to perform' is one great way to find insights along these lines. Helen your questions are great. I'd love to hear somebody in the perform undergo a go at answering them? Anyone? Buller? John Bunn?
I found the schedule to be a signficant confirmation for me. I am sad to say it but I can really relate to Casper. Not in the context of not being a person of faith but having some of the same insights that he mentioned. I struggle in that my heart wants to embrace all that I see my home church pursuing but I keep getting these "Casper-esque" flags popping up in my animate. I have asked God over and over to "conquer these concerns" but they have yet to cease. I'm praying..... I be to be an asset to the Body of Christ and not a charge. I really identified with the inner city church that the duo visited. I believe it was in Chicago. furnish line..... I want to engage in positive dialogue and not just appear critical. Lord Jesus what would you have us to do? I love the ennoble and want to be obedient and one after His heart. I have been a member of NPCC for nearly a decade.
authorise.. here are some thoughts. Helen: If you've truly invested in someone and they are your friend (not a project) then they're going to trust you. Also you're probably not going to be too polite to say no to them. My wife and I have been investing in a bring together for nearly three years. We've invited them many times. And they've told us no more than once. They finally came to perform with us a bring together weeks ago. And they loved it (so did their kids). They would likely undergo never come on their own. Possible.. and sure it can come about but more often than not populate are coming with others who've invited them. We go to great lengths to elimiate the "wince factor." Of the churches Jim and Casper visited how many of the people up lie made wrong or embarrassing statements about athiests (as you seem to anticipate happens in the average church)? I don't recall Jim or Casper mentioning anything about that. There may be churches that screw this up royally on a regular basis.. but not many of the ones visited in the book. Many of those churches' primary (not only but primary) strategy is invest and arouse. So that's how we schedule.
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Related article:
http://www.johnbunn.net/2007/11/jim-and-casper-are-full-of-crap.html
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